WNY Models

Larisa · by **Larisa** on April 6th, 2004, 2:15 am

I've worked with quite a few "crumy" photographers... I find that editing most of these images does the trick. Nothing huge, just mostly lighting and contrast changes. Editing these means I can use them in my portfolio. The question is... as a model am I allowed to? I have only edited images that are tfp... otherwise I assume that I am not allowed too. And since I have... am I giving the photographer credit that they do not really deserve? Or should the concern be that I am not getting credit for the editing?

As a photographer, personally I wouldn't care if the model made some changes as long as they are not drastic.... and even if they made the photo look horrible anyone that saw it can always refer back to me and see the original pic.

What are your thoughts on this?

(and yes... it really is 3:15am... hahaha)

KHatch · by **KHatch** on April 6th, 2004, 5:13 am

Larisa, I can tell already you're gonna be a great asset to this board.

I would have to say, generally, it's ok to "correct" an image provided to you for your promotion - if it's truly a correction, rather than a change of vision. If it's too drastic, send one to the photographer and ask what he/she thinks. Something minor like contrast/color correction or converting to b&w is no biggie, imo.

Some people are quite ~censored~ when it comes to their images. Hopefully, those are the ones you receive perfect anyways.

photomotor · by **photomotor** on April 6th, 2004, 8:16 am

Larisa,

Usually photographers who have a copyright have a right to veto changes to the photograph whether minor or major. Hatch is right though, if you're in contact with the photographer and he/she is alright with it, or has given permission, then its usually not an issue(depends on the photographer). IMHO, you do still have to give credit for the photograph as well as the editing and/or photoshopping.

Cheers

P

grsphoto · by **grsphoto** on April 6th, 2004, 10:56 am

It depends on what country you live in.

The copyright and moral rights differ on which side of the line you live on.

In Canada even though you own and have the copyright to the image you don't have the moral right to modify the work of art without the artist permission. I don't know if the same rights exist in the US, I haven't it seen it disscussed anywhere.

Personally I am not happy when a model modifies my images. I work hard to get a look I want... every image represents me and my vision. To have someone else modify and then DISPLAY an image seems an affront to me.

I also having wondering about the validity of improving someones images... if a model sees a "crummy" image that has been improved, might they shoot with a photographer that may have passed on.

Glenn

Tiana · by **Tiana** on April 6th, 2004, 12:37 pm

larisa...i understand your dilema. i do it, i'll admit it. is that right? probably not. no one has ever complained to me about it. as for TFP's...i am really picky about who i test with, and because of that i usually don't have to do any drastic altering.
BTW...David Hou in Toronto...a photographer I've worked with a few times wants to test with you. He told me to put in a good word...David rocks....everyone should work with him!

Here is an image of me by David Hou:

Stuffguy · by **Stuffguy** on April 10th, 2004, 4:04 pm

I'm in a rather weird spot here.. As both photographer, and brother of model. As far as what is right? In my opinion, it depends.

I've seen too many photographers do a TFP shoot, and dump the raw images on the model (raw as in jpg with no correction at all, not actual RAW) in the form of a CD and consider themselves done with their obligations. I've lost count of the number of photographs shot by other photographers that I've cropped, colour-corrected, sharpened, and the like, all things that I think that they should have done before handing them off, and things that they will certainly do before showing their images to others.

Is this right to do? Legally, I have no clue. Morally? Is there a choice? Unless furnished with a complete work (ie, ready to publish or print) the model is really left with a bunch of files for his/her efforts.

As a photographer, I hand off the finished files to the model in a TFP, and I'd be a bit miffed if they were overly tweaked (as UMM did to some of mine a bit ago to make them match the others on the page.. blah..). But this means that there's a lag between shooting and delivery, sometimes causing the model to get a bit antsy because she doesn't have her images yet. I can see the motivation to dump a cd of raw images sometimes, but I've sofar resisted the temptation..

Since I get the feeling that I'm already at risk of bluthering, in short:

If you get raw images dumped on you, you have no choice but to edit them yourself, to produce a finished product.

If you're given the finished product, you should talk to the photographer about how you'd like them changed, and share your ideas.. Perhaps your perspective would help him improve his image as well. Most photographers will welcome a second set of eyes.

My 2cents, though I speak only for myself..

Max · by **Max** on April 11th, 2004, 1:03 pm

Model is Kelly</p>

I have been wrestling with this thread since I first read it... and I wasn't going to respond until I read Kevin's response.

I think everything said here is quite coherant, interesting points of view and for me thought provoking.

I guess I am one of those that "DUMPS" on subjects. Meaning when I shoot with someone, I usually give them a CD of the unedited images. Doesn't really matter if they paid me or if it were some form of TFP or TFCD - they get the CD. I do offer to edit any image that the subject would like, usually up to 10% of what is shot.

I guess where my struggle is, is with the fact that when I do a full photo session with someone I shoot anywhere between 150-300 images depending on time, attitudes, clothing, climate, etc...

Kevin's comments about giving them all finished images says to me that he is being selective and picking only the best to give. I know many models wouldn't accept that in a TFP. They not only expect all the images, they demand it.

Having worked with models such as Larisa, I half assumed they would take my images and enrich them for their style. Knowing that Larisa has so many other talents, I would be honored if she took the original and "worked" it. It is still my image in the sense of style.

I have only worried about others editing my images when it comes to my figure art images. Those images I am very selective, and very rarely give all images to a subject, in fact I have only done that once. But I am also paying them for their time, so it is not a TFP session. Those images I would have a issue with someone editing them. As they are MY art, and I have a sense of how I want them viewed.

What is the answer? GOLLY! I haven't a clue. I think it is one of those very important aspects where we must have GOOD communications on both sides before clicking the shutter or clicking the mouse!

Godfrey · by **Godfrey** on April 12th, 2004, 12:03 pm

Well I think both Kevin and Max nailed it on the head...

That is good communication between the model and photographer is needed before and after the shoot.

IMHO as a photographer, I would personally only give out cd(s) that are editted. Giving a model uneditted shots means you allow them to post your unfinish work as is. I want my work to represent my ability and the web is your marketing tool. If you are showing your unfinish work then you are not showing everyone your true abilities.

That said, yes, editting does take time. This means prior to my shoot, I will need to communicate to the model that they will only get editted shots and it will take 2 weeks (my timeline) before they will get there CD. If they disagree then the tfp session will need to be called off.

As for models that want everything, well I don't know about you Max but I also will shoot anywhere between 400-800 shots per session. I will usually screen close to 40-50% of the shots out (mostly eyes closed, bad exposure, shots that are not flattering to the model, etc). As for the rest, I'll let the model (if she/he wants to) pick a selection of 30-50 shots for me to edit. Again there will be a lot of communication to come up with the selection. Especially if the shoot is of an artistic style shoot.

So back to the original topic of this thread. Since I only give out editted CDs, I would hope that by the time the model gets her shots, they will not need to adjust them for any leveling. If there are some minor adjustments that's required, then I would love to hear from the model so that I can modify it and look for it in the future. So communication before the shoot and commincation after the shoot is the best way to avoid any bad relationship between the model and photographer.

Again, this is how I like to work.

Godfrey

wnymodels · by **wnymodels** on August 30th, 2004, 3:53 pm

DKGA · by **DKGA** on April 12th, 2006, 2:48 pm

I just would like to add that doing up a Promo poster is also a good thing to add portfolio with some unedited pictures from the photographers....it all depends on what the model is looking for .. D
http://members.shaw.ca/DKGA/

Earl53 · by **Earl53** on April 23rd, 2006, 8:19 am

When I do TFP I do some editing to the photos like color correcting and cropping just to make them look good then give them to the model on CD. That’s just a little time spent on the photos so I don’t hand out bad photos. I don’t mind the model taking them and cropping for their look and style or changing the lighting.

If I spent a lot of time on a certain photo that I thought looked very good I don’t think I would want the model to tweak it here and there for their style.

Paul

MarkK · by **MarkK** on April 23rd, 2006, 9:53 am

This is one of the topics that I am passionate about. I might ruffle some feathers but it might also open more dialogue. This is about TFP's, not paid work and I apologize for spelling errors.

I try to find out the model's level of experience in photo editing programs before making the call. If it's someone I know and trust then I don't have a problem with them altering the images. Heck, sometimes I learn a thing or two from them. However, if the person that desires to manipulate them has little, no, or worse, bad editing skills, then I am hesitant in giving them the go ahead. Sometimes I have said no.

There have been a handful of experiences in the past when someone else has had a go at my images and really hacked them to shreds. Poor photo selection, awful cropping, green or purple color casts, far too much sharpening, trying to change/remove the background, wrong format, too much compression, etc and then slap my name to it. That just makes both of us look bad.

If you came to me to work with me, for whatever purpose, then you must have seen something in my work that caught your eye and wanted it in your portfolio. There should be little or no issues about the resulting images as I do stop from time to time to show what we've got so far. If you don't like the results and feel a radical overhaul is needed then please talk to me before you do. At the very least don't slap my name to your "major revision" before showing it to me first.

I, too, shoot 200- 300 images per shoot and editing all of them would be time consuming. What I do, when possible, is sit down with the model and we go thru the raw images then and there. I listen to their reactions and note which ones elicit a good response. Those are the ones that get run thru Photoshop in the following days along with others that I think have potential. If they ask about ones that weren't put thru then I put them thru. In the end on average 20-30 images are sent to the model via e-mail. Prints, if desired or ordered, are then completed.

If we, as photographers, relinquish all control of our work then are we within our rights to complain about not being seen as "real" artists? It's bad enough when GWC's are diluting the pool on a daily basis with their drek - why would we want to make it worse? Are we becoming that casual about our work that we shoot it and then toss it to others to finish regardless of how capable they are of finishing it? Has photography become that disposable?

As my Dad says "No matter how long you polish it or how hard you try, you can't make sh*t shine."

I could go on for paragraphs but am stopping here to see if there's any response.

WNY Models

My photo shop affair! - Models right to edit photos

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